5.56 and Alliant 2400

[Phaedrus]

I am setting up for first time to load this cartridge using Dillon's 550 tool to shoot in my AR15 carbine.  I used data from an old Hercules sheet I have as follows as a starting point:

14 grains 2400
55 grain FMJBT mfg Berry's
CCI primer

They list Hornady 55 grain FMJBT and Federal 250M primer.  If I had those I'd expect 2,685 fps at 49,900 psi.

I tested 20 of these and got multiple jams.  I wonder whether this powder/load will really work efficiently in this rifle.  I am guessing that it is not hot enough to cycle the action sufficiently hard thus causing the misfeeds.  I want to use 2400 because I have a lot of it.  I see now that this is mainly a powder for .410 and pistol, for instance.  Maybe it will never work right for the AR-15.  Thoughts?  Recommendations?

[Phaedrus]

I found this on another forum:

Alliant #2400 is too fast burning a powder to be practical in an AR. Pressure rise would be too great when near max loads. I don't think that #2400 load will function the action of the AR either.

And this:

2400 is THE WRONG POWDER!!! When you use too fast or to slow a powder, you are STUCK with a max load that is below factory specs. Try Win-748.

Well, that's the way the mop flops, I guess.  I will just save it for my 9mm and .45.

As an aside I think the Berry .223 is too short in that I am constrained to load at just above the min OAL of 2.215.  Either that or load so that the cannelure is completely above the case.  At 2.215 it is well shy of a factory load which comes in at 2.247.  The max allowable is 2.260.  The current Alliant guide shows a silhouette load using 2400 with 2.250 min oal which I can't achieve with this bullet.

I have some IMR 4198 which I will try using Sierra load data.  It shows 21.9 grains pushing out to 3200 fps.  My question there is will the Berry bullets safely go that fast?  I have heard of some instances of these shedding their plating at high speeds though this may just be something seen in their pistol bullets.  Sierra calls the load of 21.9 grains the maximum.

Any thoughts?

[dhhardw]

I have the Alliant Reloader's Guide in front of me now, and they do not recommend 2400 for ANY .223 Rem loads. According to the Guide, 2400's primary use is Magnum Handgun loads and also is suitable for .22 Hornet and .218 Bee. 

Alliant recommends Reloader 7, Reloader 10X and Reloader 15 for .223 Rem, depending upon the bullet you are using.  Personally, I use Reloader 10X for everything 55 grain and lighter, and Reloader 15 for everything 55 grain and heavier.  All with good results. 

Reliant's Reloaders Guide (interactive version) is available at Reliant's web site.

David

[Phaedrus]

Thanks David. 

I have an old Hercules guide that I was going by that lists the load data to which I referred.  The new one which I also have only lists 2400 for silhouette which I would try but I can't get the minimum oal with the Berry bullet.  Too short.

So, I have seven powders and none of them will work with 5.56.  I didn't realize in my previous that all the IMR I have is pencil shaped and won't work in the RL550 for any calibre smaller that .30 and having just reloaded 1000 30-06 using IMR 4064 which is also pencil lead shaped, I can attest to the fact that it doesn't really work that well with that either-it consistently threw charges that were +/- .5 grains.  Dillon says to weigh each charge individually if you insist on using those types of powders for calibres smaller than .30.

You use Reloader 10x or 15x in .223 calibre for 55 grain bullets?  I assume that is small flake type powder and WILL work efficiently/safely in progressive reloaders???

John

[dhhardw]

It will.  I use a Lee, Four Turret press with a Lee Safety Prime and auto disk powder through die system.  I reloade .38 special, .45 ACP and .223. 

Reloader 10X and Reloader 15 both flow real well through the dies and I get pretty consistent weights.  I did talk to a tech at Alliant when I bought a bunch of 62 grain ARMSCOR FMJBT bullets.  He gave me a starting and max load for 10X, but said that Alliant's official position is that 62 gr is about as heavy as 10X will handle.  I already had a load for RL 15, so I have never used 10X for anything heavier than 55 gr. 

For .223, during the recent "powder shortage" I have also used Winchester 748 and Accurate 2460.  Both have given me good results.  I do stay in the ranges recommended by reloading manuals. 

Hercules hasn't actually made dynamite or smokeless powder for a while, so the product being made currently is not probably the same product listed on your charge sheet.  If your charge sheet is dated 1989, for example, you should only use powder manufactured in 1989.  The 2009 powder has probably been revised or reformulated or whatever they do to improve them since your data sheet was printed. 

I always try to play it safe with my reloads.  If I want to shoot some really hot or match grade ammo, I can always buy it. 

I shoot a lot and have found 10X (and Bullseye for handgun loads) to be very economical. 

David

[dhhardw]

John,

The Vihtavuori Reloading Guide, 6th edition (www. lapua.com shows Alliant's Reloader 10x, Winchester's 748, Accurate's 2460, IMR 3031 (a little slower); Hogdon BL(C) 2 and Hogdon H-335 (a little faster) to all be on a par on the relative burn rate.  2400 is shown to be quite a bit faster burning than any of these.  I don't pretend to know the solution to the problem or the cause, but 2400 does seem to be faster than the "typical" powders. 

I understand that Accurate's 2230 (get it .223) and Reloader 10X were specifically forumulated for the .223 cartridge.  Winchester claims that its 748 is the perfect powder and will keep any barrel problems to a minimum.  I have used it but never pushed the maximum load. 

IMR 4198, which you are contemplating using shows to be on a par with Reloader 7 on the burn rate chart, so it should be pretty good for light .223 loads. By light, I mean the weight of the bullet.  For Alliant, Reloader 7 gives load data for 52 grain all the way down to varmint loads of 40 gr.

You didn't tell us the weight of the bullet you are proposing to use the IMR 4198 with.  The 21.9 gr load you mention would be under the IMR data for a 40 gr. bullet, max for a 50 gr bullet and way over maximum for a 55 gr bullet.

I have used ARMSCOR, Remington, Hornady and Sierra Bullets in .224 all with good results. 

You might be able to trade the 2400 if you know someone that loads magnum handgun.

David

[Phaedrus]

David, that is some good info, particularly about using old powder with current recipes.  And the powder shortage is part of the reason I am having trouble.  I didn't want IMR 4064, for instance, but that was what they had and I had heard that the new health care bill they are considering, or some other nefarious legislation, would make it difficult if not illegal to reload.  So, basically, I just threw a few thousand dollars at my nascent hobby figuring I'd sort out the details later.  Later is now.

I am using only the Berry bullet 55 grain FMJBT for .223 reloads....and I have four thousand.  As I said I am unhappy with the constraint of having to load right at the minimum OAL.

I will try tomorrow to get some 10X.  That puts my bowels in a bind because I fear it won't be available...and I need quite a bit, I guess.

[dhhardw]

Well John, the math should be pretty easy.  Lets say you work up to a load of 23 gr of 10X per round.  With 4,000 bullets to load into cartridges, you will need 92,000 grains of 10X.  With 7,000 grains in a pound, you will need a little over 13 pounds.  (Note: math calculations not guaranteed to be accurate or even close).  I saw several 1 pound cans at the local gun range last weekend.  Maybe you could pick up a couple of pounds and by the time you get them loaded, more will be available.

I stocked up on primers and powder last January and it has lasted until now.  Most things are available with Large pistol primers still being on the elusive list. 

I looked up my personal favorite and it's 22 grains of Reloader 10X with a 55 grain FMJBT.  So one pound of 10X will load a little over 300 cartridges. 

On the cannelure and the minimum oal, that does seem to be unusual.  Typically, and you already know this, the cannelure is located so that if the crimp is in the cannelure, the OAL is correct. On the Reloader 10X page for the 55 gr. FMJBT, Alliant says 2.175 for the oal.  Typical M193 rounds are 2.22.  SAAMI specs for the .223 show oal as 2.165" minimum (54.99 mm).  The Lee Reloading manual mostly lists some in the vicinity of 2.22 for oal, except the load for Win 748 shows a min oal of 2.165 (same as SAAMI).

One thing you might look at is case trim length.  If they were trimmed too short, the cartridge will be shorter even with the crimp in the cannelure.  Minimum case length per SAAMI is 1.74" (44.19mm)

Maybe someone at the range has powder and will trade something better for the .223 than what you've got.

David

[edward5759]

Phaedrus
Are you near Phoenix AZ?
I will trade for your 2400
I have 3031, 4064, BLC, 335, 322, 10 Rel.

Berry bullets work fine in Contender's.
But fine they strip out when above 2800 fps.
Go to a gun show you can trade them.
Anything less than a 1-9 twist I find they work poorly.

Powders have changed over the years.
2400 has more graphite than it did and less Diphenylamine.
it is important to use up dated material.
3031 4064 and most stick powers will vary in all powder drops.
The Dillion works best when you polish the inside of the metal parts to a mirror finish, and use a ball type powder.
This will keep the wandering weight down to +- .02.

In my pressure gun 2400 can spike pressures, too much air space? I have not decided.  I use H322 for bench rest 223 shooting.
Second problem with 2400 in the AR15 in there is not enough pressure required at the gas port IE. You got lots of jams.  The AR15 requires a pressure of 18,000 – 24,000 At the gas port.  The gas needs to have enough pressure to drive the bolt at a recommend speed of rearward movement of 225 feet per second.
your doing fine, your going to make some adjustments.

Ed

[papajohn]

Just a hunch, but I suspect the 2400 data (listed as a Silhouette Load?  Huh?)  was actually more of a Varmint Load, for those needing minimal pelt damage and not shooting at long distance.  That would explain the use of a FMJ bullet, too.

The Berry Bullets you have are not good for much besides plinking, unless I'm misjudging what you have.  Soft cores and thin jackets aren't going to do much for accuracy, and as was mentioned, they're not really made for high velocity.  Take what you can trade them for and get some real bullets!