Trouble Seating .38 Cal Wadcutters

[soldernut]

Hi all.  I'm new to this forum, but have been reloading for years, off & on.

I've just begun casting bullets, and have run into a problem.  I think I know the solution, but I'm definitely open to suggestions.

My wife and I shoot a lot of .357 target loads; 148gr. wadcutters over 3.0gr of Bullseye. My reloading was going great while I used hollow-base wadcutters.  But, no matter what I try, my cast wadcutters crush the brass when seating. I seat wadcutters flush with the case mouth.

I'm casting Ney "hardball," or "#2", using a Lee TL358-148-WC mold. After casting, I tumble lube them with Lee Liquid Alox, let it dry, run them through a Lee sizing die, then re-apply a final light coat of Liquid Alox and, naturally, let it dry thoroughly before reloading them.

Here's where I think the problem lies:

The business end of my Lee expander die is actually shorter than the cast wadcutters. I tried an oversized RCBS expander, but still had the problem. It's business end isn't any longer than the Lee's, it's just 0.005" greater in diameter.

I suspect that, with the commercial (Speer) hollow-base wadcutters, the hollow base allows the bottom of the bullet to conform to the case as it's being seated, but the solid wadcutters probably don't conform so readily.

I contacted Lee to see if they offered a longer expander plug.  Alas, they do not. 

I'm thinking of asking a machinist friend make me a Lee-style expander plug with sufficient length to match bullet length. (Incidentally, I use a single-stage press, so the "powder through" expander feature is unimportant to me.)

Suggestions?  Solutions?

Thanks in advance.

[CMSR]

Soldernut, this is my second post on this site and IMHO, I think you figured out what the problem is. I have seen this before and with Lee dies. Personally, I use RCBS dies for the 148wc. With the RCBS dies, the problem is gone, the stem has plenty of length to adjust your die and get a perfect crimp at the same time. Many, including myself, have had trouble learning to seat the WCs properly so you are not alone -- believe me, It is tricky and you slowly adjust the stem downward and raise the press handle to check progress. Since the majority, of my 38spl shooting involves the 148wc, I keep my seater permanently set at the correct seating depth. If you happen to have an already loaded factory WC round, you can use it to adjust your die and eliminate a headache.         


 I too use the exact same Lee bullet moulds you recommend. I love aluminum moulds. Also, IMHO you are spot on in your section of power and weight. With my 686, and a rest, I can get close to one ragged hole with 2.8 & 3.0 Beye.  Hope this helps   

[soldernut]

CMSR: Thanks for your reply.  The RCBS expander works fine, for me, but only with hollow-base wadcutters.  With the symmetrical (flat at both ends) wadcutters, cases still crush if I try to seat the bullets flush with the case mouth.

The good news is that commercial HBWCs are cheap and plentiful, so I might as well stick with them unless/until I get a custom expander made.

I've had great success with Speer's HBWC, and I hear that Remington's are very good, too. Like you, using a rest, my Ruger GP-101 (4" barrel) gets me very close to "one hole" groups at 15 yards.

Other than this one problem, I love Lee dies. There's almost no comparison to RCBS dies when you examine just the main, outer threads. 

The RCBS threads are black and rough.  I can feel them "crunching" as I screw them into my press.

The Lee dies' threads are smooth, and hard plated. Completely smooth screwing them into the press.

The same goes for the internal parts & threads.

Then there's the huge difference in the locking nuts. The RCBS set-screws are a joke. I resorted to dropping a piece of lead shot into the hole, then putting the set-screw back in. After using my first set of Lee Dies, I bought enough Lee lock nuts to replace the nuts on all my RCBS dies. The business of using a simple O-ring beneath the nut (and recessed into the nut a little) really works.

I haven't tried it, yet, but Lee's new "breech lock" system looks like the ultimate solution for keeping your die settings absolutely fixed from session to session.

Best of all, you gotta love those Lee "factory crimp" dies. I don't like working my brass any more than necessary and, for target loads, I don't need or want a heavy roll crimp.

Finally, for all their benefits, Lee dies are actaully less expensive. I now have Lee dies for each caliber I reload; gave my RCBS die collection to a friend just starting into reloading.

[CMSR]

Most of my RCBS dies are old. I have been doing this reloading thing for almost 40yrs. I have heard similar complaints about RCBS dies.  I agree with you about the set screw on the RCBS dies. The set screw screws up the threads. I have no idea why RCBS changed their locknuts. Fortunately I had purchased a couple dozen of the old style RCBS locknuts; the ones that tightened around the die w/o screwing up the threads.
All my carbide dies are Lee. been using them for many years.
I do have two biases against lee dies. I do not like the Oring lock nuts because I constantly have to readjust when I change dies to compensate for the compression of the Oring. What I did to correct the problem was to add the old style RCBS locknuts so they stay adjusted permanently.
The second problem I have is with the built in stuck case remover. The idea works for the most part with stuck pistol cases however, when tapping out rifle cases, the stem bends and mushrooms. Lee apparently does not heat treat them enough. The cost $2 a piece. I have bought plenty of them.

Agree with you on Lees factory crimp dies. Have you tried their neck size only dies? They are great too. I also have had good luck with Lee customer service. If you send them an email about a custom made expander or problems with their dies, they always respond.     

[soldernut]

The Lee O-ring lock nuts have worked pretty well for me after I worked out a procedure to minimize the effect of O-ring compression.  When I make final adjustments to a die, I tighten the nut as much as I possibly can - by hand.

When I remove that die, I use a wrench to begin loosening the nut. Watching closely, I've noticed that the die itself immediately begins turning with the wrench, so no error creeping there.

When putting the same die in the press, I run it down, by twirling the die body, until the lock nut almost touches the press. Then I finish by turning the nut only.  Again, I hand tighten it as much as possible.

But! Despite my success, the first time a die fails to hold it's adjustment I'll replace all my nuts with the ones that are split and use a cross-split locking screw. That, or I'll adopt Lee's new breech lock system.

I haven't tried anybody's in-press bullet remover. I'm still using the inertia (hammer style) puller I started with. 

Yes, I use the neck-only Lee crimp dies on my 30-30 and .308 loads. It works great, and I can honestly say it tightened up my groups a bit.  On a good day, using a good rest and 9x scope, I was getting groups under 1" at 100 yards with factory ammo.  My good groups, that is. I still shoot plenty of "wide" ones, but that's my error, not the gun or ammo.

With comparable reloads using my fire-formed brass and the neck-only crimp die, groups tighteien up to about 3/4".

I have written Lee about the problem with wadcutters and their .38/.357 expander. They replied with a simple "No, we don't offer a different expander."

Well, I know a machinist that'd probably turn a custom expander for me if I ever get around to making the dimensioned drawing he wants. I'm not too swift with CAD software, so I'll probably find and dust off my old drafting tools. When I get a round tuit.

[CMSR]

For your use of better terminology. The split nuts with the allen screw are the ones I use. RCBS used to put those on all their dies before they went to the newer ones with the allen nut. IMHO, those are the best. I was fortunate enough to pickup some at a gun show years ago.
I too still use the kinetic bullet puller. It is just as fast as the collet ones.   

I see you are new to this post like me. Hopefully more people will find this one and post more. I am a refugee from the site advertised as the world largest which has IMHO turned sour.

[dhhardw]

Your dilemma is really odd to me.  I have been using Lee products, starting with a Lee Loader and graduating to a Lee Turret Press.  I have been reloading .38 special with the turret press for several years and have never had a problem expanding the cases for .38 wadcutters and semi-wadcutters, which are all I ever use. 

I have to believe that yours is out of adjustment and a twist of the wrist is the simple solution to your problem.  That's all mine has ever taken.

Good luck.

[soldernut]

Hmmm. Interesting.  I wonder if your Lee expander die is different than mine. Perhaps yours is older or newer, and Lee changed the length of the working stem.

Trust me, if adjustment was the problem, I'd have it solved. I ran the expander down much farther than I like - radically flaring the case - and the solid wadcutters still crushed cases.  The length of the "business part" of the expander is much, much shorter than the length of the bullets.

I have no problems with semi-wadcutters and other bullets that protrude from the case. The Lee expander stem is long enough to accommodate them.

[dhhardw]

Of course, it was foolish of me to think it was out of adjustment.  My turret press has a Lee powder dispenser (I forget the trade name, but it has the disks in it, etc) mounted on a riser (so that it will clear the auto-prime) and on the expander die. So that when I raise the case into the expander die, it expands the case and trips the powder dispenser to drop a charge into the case. Then you start a bullet into the case and raise into the bullet seating die.

I have used Remington and Missouri Bullets wadcutters, which I load close to flush.

Is your setup like this? I think this set of .38 dies were bought in 2008.

Well, the folks at Lee have always been approachable and helpful.  Give them a call or e-mail.  If your expander die is not working, they'll probably replace it.  I broke my scale last year (my fault by the way) and they replaced it for me. Very fast and returned my check (i.e. no charge). 

[soldernut]

No, it wasn't "foolish" to ask about adjustment, and I didn't mean to word my reply in a manner to suggest otherwise.

Purchased in 2008, your dies are probably quite a bit newer than mine - unless yours had been in somebody's stock for years.

It sounds like our press setups are quite different.  I have two presses, both single-stage. One is a RCBS Rock Chucker.  The other is an inexpensive Lee press that came "bundled" with Lee's "Modern Reloading" second edition manual. 

I'd used the Rock Chucker for years before getting the small Lee press.  After using the little Lee for a while, it's clear that the Rock Chucker is probably overkill for most reloading tasks. But it is nice to have all that extra "beef" when sizing cast bullets.

Incidentally, I consider the Lee "Modern Reloading" to be a must-have book because of its extensive coverage of bullet casting and reloading cast bullets. I also haveSpeer, Lyman and Hronady manuals.  When it comes to reloading, there's no such thing as too much information.